Rooted & Rising: Growth from the Greenhouse

About Letting Go: A Journey from Control to Trust

• E's Greenhouse • Season 1 • Episode 2

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What happens when everything you've meticulously planned begins to unravel? For this successful tech executive, the illusion of control was dramatically dismantled through a series of profound losses and challenges spanning five years.

The conversation opens with her early formative loss—her father's death from cancer during her teenage years—which established her pattern of seeking control as protection against future pain. For nearly two decades, this strategy seemed effective. She built an impressive career alongside her husband in the tech industry, climbing corporate ladders while maintaining the appearance of having everything figured out.

Her awakening began with her beloved dog's cancer diagnosis—an especially painful irony since she had researched extensively to ensure he came from healthy genetic stock. Despite pursuing every possible treatment, including experimental options and amputation, she confronted the humbling reality that some outcomes remain beyond our control.

As she began genuinely seeking spiritual growth, challenges multiplied rather than diminished. Her daughter received a neurodivergent diagnosis. A difficult move to Texas brought unexpected complications. Her husband lost his job after twelve years with the same company, leading to a year-long period of unemployment despite his qualifications.

The turning point came through surrender rather than strategy. Despite financial uncertainties, the family participated in a mission trip to Mexico—a decision requiring complete relinquishment of control over schedules, accommodations, and daily activities. This counterintuitive choice became transformative, fostering deeper community connections and spiritual growth.

Her husband's breakthrough illustrates the podcast's core message: after struggling to find employment for a year, his job offer came days after a spiritual moment of forgiveness rather than through more aggressive job searching techniques.

For listeners navigating their own uncontrollable circumstances, this conversation offers a powerful alternative to anxiety and micromanagement. Through authentic community, vulnerability, and spiritual surrender, we discover that true strength often emerges precisely when we stop trying to control everything.

Camila Paloni:

Welcome. I'm glad you're here, Thank you.

Denise Jackson:

Denise, I'm glad to be here. So you have a very responsible position in tech and you have two beautiful little girls and they are Seven and one just turned five. Five and seven that's what they said. They're so cute. I got to go to Mexico with both of them and we had a really good time. We had the best time. They are amazing and a husband that is pretty wonderful. That is really learning more and more every day about being the priest and king of his household and blessing his family, and that's awesome. But lately they've really gone through some hard things. The last five years have been really kind of hard, and so let's start with that. Let's just talk about that. I'm going to switch my chair just in a little bit so that I'm all in the air.

Camila Paloni:

Yeah, absolutely yeah, so the past five years have been revealing to us. I have grown up. Yeah, so the past five years have been revealing to us. I was Catholic but never was really. It was a very lukewarm relationship with God. I did all the sacraments and stuff but I never actually had a relationship with God and I've grown up with some hard things in my life. I lost my dad when I was a teenager.

Denise Jackson:

It was a really really rough period and you lost him to cancer I lost him to cancer and he fought it for a long time. He did, he did, yes, yeah, so that's just. And you're an only child, I am, and so you, your mom and your dad was your family. That's right now yeah, yeah, tough.

Camila Paloni:

It was really really tough losing him and he was the most loving dad a girl could ever wish for. But it was really hard and even then I didn't see it quite the time, but God was providing. He was providing every single second, reflecting back on those days, either through the people that you know just came together, came with me to help me um fight through stuff, or it was resources and books and stuff that I kind of searched um. I got a dog finally. My whole life we've been like preaching to my mom that we really want a dog my dad and I. She never allowed um. By the time he passed she did allow me to have a dog. And what was that dog's name? It was phoebe, phoebe, phoebe.

Denise Jackson:

She was the sweetest little yorkshire um and she was just what you needed when she was just somebody to cry into that yeah, like a purpose, somebody to take care of.

Camila Paloni:

Yeah, and we were really good friends and I would take her everywhere in my purse. It was's like walking around. It was the most special relationship I had and just what I needed at that time. Yes, I really needed a friend and just yeah, it was great. So she helped me through that phase. It got provided that, provided with. You know, just people that kind of also circled around me at that time.

Camila Paloni:

Unfortunately, she passed away too young yeah and it was hard for me as well, losing just a feeling kind of like a repeat exactly with your daddy yeah, just somebody. I just didn't have any control over that. It was really sad and really sudden. She was really young, um, but not long after that, like my, my at this really great man, um, who kind of walked me through this whole journey and, uh, later became my husband. So it was really really amazing and we had really great.

Camila Paloni:

I want to say almost 15, 20 years together, where things were going perfectly, you know, like our careers were going really well.

Denise Jackson:

And you're both in IT, so those are high stress careers. I lived that too. Yeah, I know. Everything's changing all the time Exactly, you know very high expectations.

Camila Paloni:

You know, just aiming high and we were like traveling all around and just really getting climbing the ladder you know, and enjoying your lives enjoying it and just really getting climbing the ladder, you know, and enjoying your lives enjoying it and just becoming just enjoying each other and so we had.

Denise Jackson:

Where was God in that? Were you tell me about that relationship during that time?

Camila Paloni:

Yeah, it was. It was something I mean I've always. It was still lukewarm for me, right Like I. I honestly I was again Catholic. It was still lukewarm for me, Honestly. I was again Catholic. I would talk, I would pray at night, but those prayers were really mechanical. It was never a relationship.

Camila Paloni:

When we got married, we got married in a Catholic church, and it was a really beautiful church At that time I felt like God was calling us Into a deeper relationship, into a deeper relationship, the priest, we kind of became friends with them and there was like some young group at the church that we became friends, but we, we just we just didn't listen much. You know, we were just, we had our own stuff career wise, and we were traveling for work and we just didn't really dedicate. Um got called us at that time, but I don't think we listened to.

Denise Jackson:

The good thing is like he doesn't stop calling. He didn't he?

Camila Paloni:

never stopped trying, he never stopped trying. So, he kept. He kept going I'm like, okay, you're not going to listen, but you're going to listen soon enough. Um and out, um. We later moved to the us, um and uh, and again we had a really good, really good life. Everything was going really well and until more or less covid time, when things started to really become challenging so before that, though, you decided to have children.

Denise Jackson:

Yes, yes and so you've been on your own, just the two of you traveling, moving up the ladder, and those IT companies, and then y'all made the decision to have a baby yes, yeah, well, we first had. Finally, I was in a good place to have a another dog which was a good retriever that I really wanted to have, um, and so that was the first.

Camila Paloni:

That was the first thing, um, I've always been very like perfectionist, always have to be in control, I always have to have a plan and things need to go exactly as I'm planning. You know, I'm always going to plan for a worst case scenario and I'm like that's what I've done with Oliver, this dog, and I'm like, okay, well, I'm gonna make sure he doesn't have any genetic diseases. You know that he comes from a really good lineage. So I did all the research that you could possibly imagine, like crazy, to make sure he would come from a good place and that he would have a normal life.

Camila Paloni:

Because I hadn't had that with my prior dog and I'm like I am going to be, because I didn't do any of that at that time.

Denise Jackson:

So I'm like no.

Camila Paloni:

I, I thought that I'm like if I, if I did that right now things will go my way. Exactly, I would have a different outcome. So I did what I had to do. I did all the research. Um had this most beautiful dog. It was the most amazing dog and I'll come to that later. But soon after, so three days after we got the dog, I found I was pregnant my first oh wow, well, was it?

Denise Jackson:

were you trying to get pregnant or that was we were? Yes, we were like. So it was a good surprise at that moment. Yay, I'm pregnant.

Camila Paloni:

We didn't think we were going to get pregnant that fast. Oh, I see it was fast.

Denise Jackson:

It was like that is correct.

Camila Paloni:

But we didn't think so. We thought usually I guess I gotta keep trying. But it wasn't the case. It was really fast. So I guess it was a little bit unsurprising that way but we, we were ready, we were ready and we wanted right.

Denise Jackson:

So so that's like I just want to spend a little bit of time on that control because, like really, I know you and you are so competent in what you do, and like you've done that with everything since then that came up. If there was a challenge, you do the research, you figure it out. We can talk about that if you want to, later. But, like if anybody could control the situation, you have to be one of the rock stars that could control the situation, and yet we can't, and we there's only one. There's two sides here, right, there's satan who wants to control us, or there's god that gives us the choice to let him step in and lead us and guide us, and he does it so gently.

Camila Paloni:

but we have those two choices, but we have to come to in ourselves.

Denise Jackson:

We want that right.

Camila Paloni:

Yeah.

Denise Jackson:

And so you had done all that you could think of with your dog to make sure it was going to be perfectly Oliver, so he would be perfectly fine for many years.

Camila Paloni:

Yeah, yeah, and it turned out it wasn't the case. He was only five years old when he was diagnosed with bone cancer and it was devastating because he was like my first child, you know, so loving. And the relationship with that dog was so special, so special and he was, you know. Unfortunately, he was diagnosed and he was, you know.

Denise Jackson:

unfortunately, he was diagnosed and you went through this whole amputating his shoulder down and that just killed you just having to watch him. But I love the story of how, right before Sophia was born, right, he jumped up on you and he never did that. But then he put his paw up and his little face His face.

Camila Paloni:

So he never jumped on our sofa. We were never allowed to. He never actually tried to do it either. But I was nine months pregnant with both my daughters and those were the only two times he jumped on the sofa. We were watching TV spontaneously. He just jumped on it, rest his face, you know know, in my, on my belly, and a few days after they were born.

Denise Jackson:

And he did that twice with both of my daughters and exactly the same way, as if, like, he knew they were coming yeah, so, even though, so you saved his life and then, after you saved his life, he was there loving on those girls, and so he was meant to be there a little longer for that purpose, right, yeah, yeah, that's really really good.

Camila Paloni:

He was the most loving the most. Yeah, he was a precious and it's.

Denise Jackson:

It's so hard when we lose anybody, um, but you know, what I feel like is important for us to remember is like we got them, we had them for a time. We won't. We won't have anybody forever. They won't have us forever because we are going someplace else and it's not a bad thing to do, but we we feel like if we could just control it, we could be here, we can make sure that never hurts us or it'll use us empty again. So I mean I think that's like I'm talking about it a lot, because I know I went through wanting to control everything and found out I had no control.

Denise Jackson:

And you have gone through that and we're both strong, pretty sufficient women and I want other women to hear that because it's something that we all feel like we need to do because of the world we grew up in. We don't want to be weak, we don't want to let our guard down, and really I think in the world we don't need to. But if we trust God with our lives, we have a sure foundation and that's really what we're hoping for is the sure foundation that, no matter what we go through, he'll stay by us and he will comfort us and he will give us the love that that animal gave you, that your dad gave you, that my brother brother gave me. That we lost for a time, but he, he pours that love back into us and stands us up again.

Camila Paloni:

Yeah yeah, and there's so much lessons through all of that, like you're mentioning, we wouldn't have experienced his love and his joy, you know, and the girls loved him and the girls loved him and, like, I think one of the most vivid memories I have was like the day he came back from the surgery he amputated this whole like shoulder. He had nothing in his front like front leg, there was nothing else. It was the most heartbreaking thing for me to see. It was really, really hard, but for him, like the first time that we took him out to go potty, you know, and he realized he didn't have his front limb anymore, he was just, you know, he was joyful, he was still happy, he was still like wandering around.

Denise Jackson:

He was in that father right Exactly.

Camila Paloni:

And kind of with what he had. He was just being joyful and that was such a great lesson for me. I'm like, oh my goodness, look at you. I'm suffering so much because of you. And you were the one who has, you know, now is completely amputated, and you were just like acting as if nothing had happened.

Denise Jackson:

And choosing that joy, choosing the joy, choosing life, while he had it Exactly, choosing what you have with what you have yes Right what you have with what you have?

Camila Paloni:

yes, right at that time.

Denise Jackson:

So, he taught you like a lot of good things. God gave him a little time to teach you those things he did and then he did die. Um, not too too long after that. He this cancer came back after you'd done everything you could oh my gosh, everything. You had him in an experimental treatment. You, you did everything. There wasn't anything else you could have done. It was nothing.

Camila Paloni:

I mean, that's the one thing. I'm like there's nothing I could have done. But it was always me trying to get control right. I go with the situation. I'm gonna try everything to save this dog. Yeah, the world to me. So yeah, we took him to this experiment like us uc davis just trying to really get it all the all the new stuff and develop the vaccine out of his own cancer. It was just like crazy stuff. Um, he was fine until suddenly it was just very sudden he wasn't anymore.

Denise Jackson:

Um, and it was really tough, it was really tough and that was just one of the all that was like yeah, then then, uh, so you, you both worked for the same company and it's a large company that had huge layoffs not too long after the COVID stuff, which every place, every company around the world faced the same thing, and you didn't get laid off either one of you during that. But then a few months ago they had another layoff and Gustavo got laid off. That's right, and that had to be hard on him. We know it was hard on him and really hard on you, because here are the girls that I mean.

Denise Jackson:

You said at one point like it'd be so nice for me to be able to be with these girls but you you have a job and and that's the only job of the family now for a while and gustavo was applying everywhere and no doors were opening up so it was a place of you couldn't control it no and so how did that feel sorry to make you on the spot because I know it wasn't easy.

Camila Paloni:

It was, um, I'm gonna take the liberty to go a little bit. Yeah, prior to that. So, um, it was a year where we finally moved to texas. So we, so we were back in california and, like I said, five years it was not like this is just happening. It was like almost like it was escalating.

Camila Paloni:

It was interesting because it was a time where I decided to get closer to God and decided to read the Bible more, listening to Christian music and just starting to get more in depth with his word, his word, um. But he was also a time he was like okay, now I I'm gonna show you who I am and that I am in control, and not you, and that's not good for you, right? So he started to really just show me, yeah, stuff, right, like, and it was hard, it was hard to be where we were. Things started happening around us, with us. We just really needed to leave, um. So we decided we wanted to come here, but there was no, no open doors to come here so it took us a while when we finally made the move it was also really hard, because nothing about the move was easy.

Camila Paloni:

everybody that could do something to make it harder, they took advantage of us. It was a really hard move too, so it was not like oh, once all of that was done, then it's all like great.

Camila Paloni:

It was really hard, even being here. We also at the same time had a really, really stressful situation environment at work. My daughter was also diagnosed as a newer divergent. Um so situation. I was like I don't know what to do, lord, I don't. I was so stressed out and I was so, um, just, I just didn't have any. I didn't know what to do.

Denise Jackson:

Right, like with all and you've always known like well, I could do this, and I could do this, and I could do this and I could do this, but none of that at that time I'm like, no like.

Camila Paloni:

How is this nothing according to plan yes, plan any of this.

Denise Jackson:

What do I do now?

Camila Paloni:

and I don't, I don't know. It was very overwhelming. I had to take some time off from work because I just really was not in a good place at the time. It was really hard for me and I just at that time things started to change for me and I was just like trying to talk to God and trying to listen to him and just God, what do you want me to do? I really feel like I need to be closer to my daughter and help her more. Work was always very intense. It was always really hard, but I was asking him and I didn't hear anything back, or I didn't at at least I didn't. I, I didn't think I did. Maybe it was speaking to me, but I at the time was more like okay, lord you're, I don't know what to do, so I'm just going to take, take up my cross and just keep following you.

Denise Jackson:

That's what I'm going to do, that's what I'm, that's probably what he was telling me, and that's you. Your choosing. You're choosing to continue to follow.

Camila Paloni:

Exactly.

Denise Jackson:

Even though there are no answers.

Camila Paloni:

No answer. I don't know what to do, but I'm going to trust you, lord, and I'm going to keep doing what you're doing. I'm going to go back to my work and I'm going to try to do my best for my daughter. It's really really hard but, I'm going to do it.

Denise Jackson:

And four months later that's when my husband lost his job, oh my goodness so. And you know we have an enemy that wants to kill, steal and destroy us. So here you are seeking the lord. Your enemy doesn't want you seeking the lord, and so he's throwing every single thing that he can, I think at you guys and um, but god was there. He was still there, he's still present, waiting for you to choose the next step, the next step. And you chose. You kept choosing, even after he, after gustavo, lost his job. Um, you were choosing because you know we're talking a little bit even then, and you were just saying I know god's got a plan, I know god's got a plan and he did have a plan it wasn't in our time, he was not holy moly, because I started praying with you and I was like okay, lord, today they need to have me today.

Denise Jackson:

That's how it happened.

Camila Paloni:

Yeah, because um that was hard because he again like the whole, like austin office route got laid off, so it wasn't.

Denise Jackson:

It wasn't nothing to my husband's you know, but it was the whole. Thing. But obviously that affects someone's ego and all of that especially, he had been in this company for 12 years.

Camila Paloni:

So it was just and it was really hard to find another job. You know like it was high profile jobs, which was just really hard.

Denise Jackson:

It was a year plus. A year plus with him doing everything that he could have done and to get it and learning new skills. I really loved that part of what he was doing because, like he wasn't even sitting there saying, oh I have to be in my doing what I've done before. He was learning how to program. He was thinking about new ideas, he was thinking about everything, yeah. But then we went on this mission trip to mexico. Well, y'all were already in this community group. Was he going to the community group?

Camila Paloni:

we as a family, both of us as a family.

Denise Jackson:

So already he was starting to really seek god too. He was at a place where he couldn't control it. He couldn't control it.

Camila Paloni:

He, he heard about the mission and he was like telling me you know, kimmy, I think I should really go to this. So he was hearing God and. I was like, are you kidding me? Like at that time, well, I don't know, almost a year without a job, yeah and I we've got our savings and all, but we didn't want to mess with any of that.

Camila Paloni:

Right so like now we're spending all this money in this mission trip, plus everything we're spending like no, are you out of your mind? And it was again another time that I had to just kind of stop and listen. And you know, I had all these concerns. Stop and listen, I had all these concerns. My girls. Yeah, you're going into a foreign country? Yeah, and I didn't know anything about the schedule, about the food?

Denise Jackson:

Oh yeah, because it was very loose. Very loose Because we were trusting the church there to lead us and we were all fine with that once we got there, but it was a little.

Camila Paloni:

That was my first mission trip too, so I was like I had no idea what to expect, and with my kids especially, with small kids yes, it's hard. But there's like all these you know like things need to be a certain way with my oldest and it's just hard like how am I gonna control?

Denise Jackson:

the situation and, yeah, how do I know nothing? How do I know?

Camila Paloni:

nothing about what we're gonna do. What we're gonna eat when we're gonna eat when we're gonna sleep, we're gonna be working the whole time like, are you nuts? This was a time when I was just like praying a lot to god and god, what do you want me to do? And he was just like go, just go, just trust, just let go of control. Once in your life, you know, I've been teaching you these past five years.

Camila Paloni:

You know like listen, you can just let it go yeah, and I'm like, oh hey, lord, I'll let it go, I'll just see what you have for me. And, oh my goodness, it was one of the best experiences of my life.

Denise Jackson:

It was good for me too, but I got to see a strong man who had gone through a lot be willing to get up there and talk about what God was doing in his life and owning that. You know, I thought I could be in control of everything. You two together were a good couple. You are a good couple, but both of you have learned to let go and let God. And your oldest was sick when we got there. She got sick.

Denise Jackson:

And that was horrible because the first day you were like I'm going, I want to go, but I can't go because she's ready to fever and I don't even know what's going on. That's the first time we really spent time by ourselves. Talking was when I went up to see you that day.

Camila Paloni:

That's right, right before we left, and I'm so thankful, that's right that we got to be friends. It was so good, even though she was sick, even though it was hard, it was hard.

Denise Jackson:

It was harder with all these things, yes, but even looking back for sophia, I feel like that was like good, because she got that peacefulness and quiet with her mom and then when she did come, she was ready to be there. She wanted to get there. You know, it's like it was good she wanted to help yes, she just was great.

Denise Jackson:

I mean she had, she seemed like she didn't have any challenges To me just looking from the outside. She was just so happy and talking and visiting. So it was really really good for both of them too. It was really great yeah yeah, and your youngest is like. She's like a whirlwind, so be a squatter that you've got the one that's gonna just bring the storm and bring the smiles. She would go around giving smiles to everybody, yeah she was just loving on everyone.

Camila Paloni:

It was really really good. Yeah, so I think it was. It was so amazing like we got to know people like you. All that great things.

Denise Jackson:

We left feeling like family and that was amazing.

Camila Paloni:

Yeah, yeah, and we made a difference, right, and we made a difference.

Denise Jackson:

We made a lot of differences.

Camila Paloni:

It was really fun, it was amazing. It was, so it was again like we were really thankful. You know it was a tough year.

Denise Jackson:

We were really well, it's not even it wasn't over. So we came back from that trip and um, gustavo didn't get a job still for a while, um, and you were going through some things too physically, just um, dealing with some health stuff, um. But then so exciting, he got his job and it's a great job. And it's so funny because when he got the job, wasn't it like it was gonna? You were like wait what? You have to leave town for all these weeks for training, what's gonna happen? Your in-laws ended up coming in and helping to take care of things.

Camila Paloni:

And so everything just that's it.

Denise Jackson:

It just all fell into place, which, again, you know. I look back and I see that in my life too, like I stressed about it, I tried to control everything and make sure it would all work. It did not work the way I expected it to, but everything worked, because he doesn't leave us.

Camila Paloni:

yeah, no, he doesn't and it's and it's amazing also like you should get and talk to to guto and that's his testimony to give, but one of the things that was really amazing that he says there was a forgiveness component to the whole thing. He had like this grudge, you know, onto him for everything that had happened, the moment where he asked God to help him to forgive, and when he felt like he did, he felt like this weight coming off of his shoulders and like a few days later he got the job. Yeah, praise God, and he got the job with three other men, with two other men in our community group who had been looking for a job. I don't know if you heard that I did not hear that.

Denise Jackson:

Who was?

Camila Paloni:

that uh, pastor jose even talked about it.

Denise Jackson:

Oh, I missed that day. I guess he did that's awesome he was one of three men.

Camila Paloni:

Uh, he's a season for all the three men in our community group. That's awesome. The whole year they've been looking for and answer, you know from a job perspective, and all of them within a matter of days. Oh wow, that's awesome. It was amazing to witness.

Denise Jackson:

You know, and I love that, Gustavo, and the men at our church. They have this strong community and men, just like we do, we need friendships. We need other women in our lives that we can count on, that trust the Lord with our lives and stand with us when we go through things. But men, it's so hard for them and in our church I just love that. Our men feel the connection to other men that love the lord that's.

Camila Paloni:

That's such a blessing it is.

Denise Jackson:

It is okay. Well, we're gonna wrap this conversation up, but I bet we'll have more conversations down the road, and we are still praying for camilla with her health issues. I'm asking you guys to join us, because we're two or more. Agree is touching. We have what we say, and that's God's word, not my word. But, camila, do you have any one little piece of advice that you'd like to give to these women?

Camila Paloni:

to just keep a little tidbit of wisdom, yeah, I think is just trust, trust people and find people around you. Find people that you can trust, women that you can trust, because none of us have it figured out, none of us. We're all going through stuff right. So find people that you trust, either through your church, I don't know through community groups, through or friendships.

Denise Jackson:

I mean God can bring you close friendships exactly you know but a lot of times churches is a that's a great place, exactly because at least you're grounded on that on the same principles on the same values right like so it's.

Camila Paloni:

It's been amazing like we've moved to texas not not long ago, to be honest and we are surrounded by people who share our faith, who share our values, and that's been mostly through church so yeah, find your people, find your community, trusting each other. Be open and vulnerable. I think that's been one of the most important things for me and the biggest piece of advice for me get in the word trust the the Lord. Just, I know it's hard, uh, and for me, I'm a control freak and I'm a control freak in recovery.

Camila Paloni:

I am trying not to be um and God has been teaching me, um, that I don't always have to have control over things and I have to replace that perfectionism that's been such a foundation in my life for so long. I have to replace him by by G. I have through through jesus, right, I have to just put him in the foundation of my life and just trust him, just talk to him, have that really close relationship with him. He wants to hear you, he wants to hear your struggles. Right, he does not have to be that formal kind of a kind of a thing like he. He wants to be your friend and he, he wants to be there for you and I think that's been such a life-changing experience for me once.

Camila Paloni:

I decided that and I, like Lord, I just need your help. I want to have that relationship with you. Help me learn how to, because sometimes it's also really hard. How do I have that relationship? It's hard, it's also by, but it's worth. Yeah, worth it to keep. It's worth it. It's worth it Also by talking to people who have been maybe further along in your faith journey. I think that's been also super helpful for me. People like you, denise, and got all their other friends who are just further along in their journey, in their faith journey, who have helped me with questions and know and doubts and scripture when I didn't have any or just I don't know. It's just been just super helpful having having friends around it.

Denise Jackson:

It does, you know. It tells us that we need the body if, if, that were part of each other and, um, we need that. We need that for our defense in the earth while we're walking through it. But one thing I just want to tell you to end this is that abba father created you strong and independent and capable because you're a warrior woman you are mighty, but we do have to be willing to.

Denise Jackson:

Uh, let him choose him. And then we come into fullness of that strength. It's not like he he's never really taken. He's made me stronger. The more I submit to the word. He strengthens me more and more and I get stronger. I'm much stronger now than I was when I was a 16 year old kid. You know, uh, by leaps and bounds, and I expect my later days will be greater.

People on this episode

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Denise Jackson

Host